The Red Cliffs Discussion.

[Lu Xiang]

Also know as Chi Bi.
Who do we think actually won the battle?

It was techinically a coalition of Shu and Wu vs. Wei.
Wei suffered dramatic losses and had to pull back after losing most of their armada. Although this happened, Shu also betrayed Wu afterwards and therefore set a huge divded and potentially the start of the three kingdoms.

Who do we think actually won?

Though Wei suffered a great defeat, technically Shu and Wu seperated and therefore made their conquest easier from then onwards. I'm not saying it was their plan, but if Shu and Wu had carried on together.. Wei would've been no match. This was a win inside a loss.

[Liao Wei]

I believe that the battle itself was a victory for the coalition in the simplest of senses, involving the routing of Cao Cao and his forces - diplomacy problems that arised after the battle cant necessary be blamed on what happened. Obviously Wei/Jin won the war in the end, Chi Bi itself was just delaying what seemed to be inevitable.

[Xia]

I think Shu won Red Cliffs really.. The novel made that all too clear. Zhou Yu knew what he was talking about.

[yanosaudren]

I think that with Sun Quans ambitions he would have betrayed Shu no matter what they did (I also believe Wu betrayed Shu but thats a completly different argument).

However Wei had its great army defeated, they lost the region of Jing, and Cao Cao lost his nerve for a while. Wu survived and gained an ally. Shu survived, gained an ally and took over Jing province

So without a doubt Shu won

[Zhou Yu]

I agree with Yanos mostly

Wei lost a huge amount of troops and ships and land so they lost the most by a mile. But all Wu really won from the battle was survival as for gaining an ally in Shu they were little more than allies in name at that stage.

Shu on the other hand gained survival and victory in the battle while Wu did most of the fighting for them. Then they got got Jing province because of Wu beating Cao Ren gaining an area they never should have been able to take otherwise. So for me thats a massive victory for Shu turning around what was otherwise for them an impossible situation.